“Finn and Rey are wholesome which does not work in larger than life story. Also, they have exactly the kind of comfortable, tension-free chemistry that kills any sexual tension. They are great friends. That’s the kind of chemistry they have.
I can see why some fans like this, especially people leaning SJW. It checks all SJW Approval Boxes: he’s beta, she’s alpha so ZERO “rapey” vibe that SJWs tend to feel every time boy wins an argument. He’s totally inferior to her. She has to save him 100 times aka she comes off as a super woman. They are interracial so there’s big “If you don’t ship them you are racist end of discussion” sign above their heads.
All that isn’t interesting or romantic to me. It doesn’t scream epic. It’s cute, wholesome, easy to like but hardly something that inspires passion (either love or hate). And great romances are about passion and should not be afraid to be polarizing. Reyfinn is simply too afraid to be divisive so much so that they sanitized his character to nth degree. He’s a Storm Trooper who never hurt a fly and therefore has everyone’s approval to court Rey. Please cite great movie or literally romance where everyone approved of the couple because they were so freakin adorable and politically correct or whatever. You can’t. because Romeo and Juliet, Wuthering Heights, Gone with the Wind, Ana Karenina are not about cuteness and easy going-ness and everyone-likes-them-and-approves-of-them-ness.
This is the reason why so many Star Wars fans didn’t fall in love with Reyfinn, despite marketing effort to direct their shipping, and discovered Rey and Kylo, a total opposite of Reyfinn. Rey and Kylo have all the makings of the epic, classic literature-like couple. First of all, they inspire passion. Their shippers love them, their antis hate them. Great romances inspire passionate response – love and hate – in viewers/readers.
Second, they have the right kind of chemistry. Sexual, unsettling, tense, gives one feeling that they are lost in their own world and nothing else exists around them.
She’s Light and he’s Dark. Nobody approves of this so there’s struggle to be together against the odds which is staple of all unforgettable romances. Also, Star Wars movies never explored romantic relationships between Jedi and Dark Siders, though EU is quite rich with those stories.
She is stronger than him and he admires that and likes her because of it. So that would be a little bit of political correctness thrown into the mix. Strong, mentally stable woman knows how to handle mentally unstable, broken soul of a man. She isn’t abused because she wouldn’t let him and because he’s really trying to be his best around her (he doesn’t want to kill her, or even hurt her).
Their relationship is bigger than them. The fate of the galaxy pretty much depends on whether he’ll turn completely Dark or see the Light. In epic stories like Star Wars, romance has to be epic. Padme and Anakin were essentially epic (he turned Dark because of his love for her) but poorly executed to get the point across. But they were. Han and Leia had the iconic the Princess and the Scoundrel interplay that transcended class and status and therefore resonated with millions. Rey and Kylo are the only pairing from TFA that has potential to be not just as epic but most epic of them all. I cannot stress enough the importance of Jedi and Dark Sider falling in love and changing the course of history. It’s never been done before and it’s in the very heart of the main plot which is Rey the Heroine and Kylo the villain and outcome of their conflict.
The iconic imagery that their interaction already produced. They are full of subtext, overtones and classic romantic tropes that resonated with people since the beginning of storytelling and still do in modern times.”
Everyone agrees there are blatant parallels between Poe’s and Rey’s interrogation scenes but I haven’t seen anyone discuss the similarities between both “Kylo vs Rey” scenes so I’m gonna do it. I wanted to upload the gifs because I am not super eloquent so this post is heavy because I’m going to go through both scenes in order.
I think the similarities are important as they both tie to Luca’s shaping the movies as mirror images of themselves (link) and @ohtze ‘s brilliant “Death and the Maiden” meta.
Okay. I’d like to apologize if some things are not working right off the bat, I suck at uploading stuff.
Let’s look at both scenes in a plain, linear way…
The first similarity is that both scenes start with Rey’s watching Kylo as he drives his fiery blade through someone.
Then Kylo locks his eyes on Rey as she is stepping aways from him in horror (this may or may not be chronological due to what we could call a force vision time paradox but it does happen like so on camera)
Then Kylo follows Rey (or Rey+Finn) into the woods.
Fourth : Rey’s attempt at shooting him are useless (despite the girl having better than your average stormtrooper’s aim).
Skip to fight scene, Rey tries to get away from Kylo by climbing out of some kind of rocky gorge.
It goes on for a while then someone taps into the force to whip someone else’s ass (Kylo by freezing her, Rey by… well, you know what I mean).
Tables are turn and bam ! Laser to the face, motherfucker.
…Down you go.
Aaannnd, end scene. At this point either Rey or Kylo is neutered/rendered helpless.
If I think all these parallels are importants, it is in regards to both finales.
The first one being Kylo abducting Rey.
While the second is the earth literally cracking open to separate the both of them.
This is specialy interresting regarding the “Death & the Maiden” trope as explained by our shark mother, @ohtze, because it ties it together imo. When Hades gets is hands on Persephone, in the summer (hinted by the lush greenery Rey can’t shut up about) he takes her to the underworld on his chariot (see the nice sleek ship up there?) and tries to essentially entice her into having Stockholm syndrome inducted feelings towards him by disguising her captivity as something else (”You are my guest” dead ringer here if you’d excuse my lame pun)…
… on the other hand when Persephone escapes him… while admittedly, having the work being done by her mother while she starves (Hello, Rey? It’s me Unkarr)… it’s in the heart of a winter never seen before by the Greeks (see the snow?). Plus, I believe the “underworld” reference is, again, heavily handed since the ground has freaking ripped open and there is lava everywhere.
So there, Tumblr… you got that one right. These two scenes are essentially the same scene. They even both have similar Poe-Dameron-saves-the-day cut scenes worked into them roughly at the same stages.
What’s bothering me, though? The CATCH. WHERE is the catch ?? WHERE is the freaking pomegranate seed?
We all know the story : Hades tricked Persephone, letting her believe she got away when she never really did. She was forever tied to hell (and him) because she ate the damn fruit… Where is that component between Rey and Kylo? What aren’t we seeing? Is this the hint for a force bond? Is it something else? How was Rey tempted? How has she succumbed (because Persephone ultimately did) when we know she resisted Snoke’s prompting to kill Kylo?
I need answers…
I was actually just writing something about the pomegranate in my latest meta.
I think that the Force bond could be he pomegranate seeds.
If we’re going with metaphors and not the literal, the pomegranate seeds don’t even need to be a Force Bond. It just needs to be Rey tapping into the Dark Side, in general (see: her anger, which she displays just as much of as Kylo).
Like once you let the Dark Side in, there’s really no going back. Yeah you can be reformed (see: Revan and Bastila), and you don’t have to be permanently stuck in one state or another, but once you use both the Light and Dark Side to fuel you, you’re basically a Grey Jedi.
Kylo kinda IS one, at least psychologically (see: his conflicted feelings, being drawn towards the light). Basically by pissing Rey off, he made the two of them two sides of the same damn coin. If there’s a Force Bond, this would make it worse.
Before she wouldn’t take the lightsaber, later she does. That is the seed.
^I agree with this. If you’re looking for literal seeds and not the metaphorical, the lightsaber is it.
You know me. or maybe you don’t. I am Ellie, I’m a writer (fanfic, unpublished but eh…I’ve been doing this since I was fourteen, which is over ten years at this point – I am getting very old). And as you should know, I am first and foremost writing romance stories.
In all my writing years, I’ve written countless romances, meet-cutes with super-fast infatuations, slow burns, friendship leading to interest, leading to sexy times, whathaveyou. I’ve also written enemies to lovers, awholefuckinglot.
So I know a little bit about how to drop little hints very early on in the story that the animosity between the two people we are watching hate each other fervently are not going to do so forever.
If you work under that premise, you find multiple ways of establishing the fact that there is something simmering beneath all the hate and rivalry you’re exploring in the first act of your story.
note: [usually a 3-acter in these circumstances: act 1: establish connection, fester some reciprocated loathing // act 2: turn the tables, things are changing, our heroes discover different sides to each other, maybe spend a long time reliant on each other and mostly alone (GO SEE the movie LEAP YEAR FUCKING HELL, go do it! It’s a prime example of enemies to lovers if I’ve ever seen one) // act 3: they own up to their feelings for each other, we get a kiss or a day or two of fluffy shit and then something happens that threatens to tear them apart again, something to overcome before they get their HEA]
So, this past weekend I’ve been in London (sitting at a Costa in St.Pancrass right now hehe) and went to Forbidden Planet to buy some Star Wars crap and instead read the Reylo-bits in the TFA novelisation by the shelf like a word-thief and I noticed 3 (three, THREE) literary tricks used in those scenes which I would have used just the same had that been my enemies-to-lovers-act-1-writing.
1. “This gives me no pleasure” – And all it entails.
Disclaimer: There is a part in this argument that many, many, many people on here will hate and will want to misconstrue, misunderstand and burn my house down for it. You will know it when it comes on and I implore you to PLEASE read my words of explanation and keep your pitchforks holstered, thank you.
Throughout all of Rey’s and Kylo’s interactions, Kylo doesn’t tire of saying how he does not want or wish to hurt Rey and that he wants her to comply so he won’t have to. He says “I will go as easily as I can” and “This gives me no pleasure” before he mind-probes her.
If I was writing their scenes as a first act to what would later become an enemies-t-lovers-romance, I would lay the groundwork establishing a way back for both the characters in their being shitty assholes to each other. So we can all back paddle together later and understand why these carnal enemies are suddenly locking lips.
In more traditional stories you would give both enemies a reason to be shitty (example: “You’ve got mail” – this asshole corporation-greedbag is forcing my wonderfully lovely little bookshop off the market, I will be a colossal dick to him” while, and this is important, maintaining some boundaries, like: “I will be an ass to him but I won’t push him into oncoming traffic or, more realistically, here is the guy who I hate because he is destroying my livelihood but he’s having a really shitty day so I’m gonna lay off of him, because I’m not that much of a monster.
In terms of Reylo, this is Kylo, rehashing time and time again that he does not want to hurt her. That is something I, as a writer, would call to later. That this man never had any fun hurting this woman. That is the foundation on which the second act will be built on.
AND there is another hint pointing in that direction (the direction being: we need way back for Kylo, a reason why he can be forgiven) and that’s the frequent repetition of how Rey is hurting while he rummages through her brain.
I am not kidding here; every single time it’s mentioned that Rey is hurting from that its in some version of this:
“Rey strained under the pain OF RESISTING HIM”
“Rey tried TO KEEP HIM OUT SO BADLY IT HURT”
etc.
This is the dangerous ground I talked about in the disclaimer and I’m sure you can already see why. Because this reads, if you look at it with tumblr’s eyes, like duper obvious victim-blaming.
“Rey was only in pain because she tried to fight it.”
Which is horrible, obviously, a terrible concept and a terrible thing to say: You only hurt because you were trying to fight it, had you let it happen, it wouldn’t have hurt.
This, in the context of sexual violence, is fucking terrible and should not be a message communicated in a movie like Star Wars.
BUT if we take off the tumblr goggles, and especially the ones that ant*s like to don when looking at Reylo and desexualise their interactions connected to the mind-probing, we will have to look at the intention behind those sentences and how they play together with the “I don’t want to hurt you”-postulations.
Because it’s just another way of showing: Kylo does not want to hurt her, truly and he wouldn’t if it was just him. Had Rey been placid, she wouldn’t have been in pain, had she let him get the information willingly, she wouldn’t have suffered. The pain derived from trying to lock him out of her head – Rey hurt herself trying to shut him out.
PLEASE LOOK AT THIS SENTENCE OUTSIDE OF A SEXUAL/SEXUALLY VIOLENT CONTEXT! It is a form of violence but it is not sexual – or at least, I don’t think it was intended to be perceived or received as sexual. This might have happened and that might as well be another horrible thing – with coded sexual violence as a plot-device yadda yadda, that’s another post.
It comes out the same.
Kylo did not want to hurt her, this is evidenced in both his words and actions and very, very deliberately written to reflect that.
2. “There is…something” – A lot of it.
This is a short point, because it’s very obvious.
From memory, I can account at least three instances in their shared scenes where one or the other remarked about something ‘special’ about either the other person (Kylo about Rey) or the connection they seem to have (Rey & Kylo).
This is another thing I would do to establish that whatever is going on between our hateful heroes is going somewhere…what can I say…special.
3. “Drawn to – you” – aka Club-you-over-the-head-obvious
“…she felt herself inexorably drawn to– to–
‘You,’ she said. ‘You’re afraid that you will never be as strong as Darth Vader.’”
This is a direct quote from the book. Let’s look at it again, shall we?
“…she felt herself inexorably drawn to– to–
‘You,’ she said. ‘You’re afraid that you will never be as strong as Darth Vader.’”
And now read this and realise what part of the two sentences sticks with you. I’m pretty sure you will find it’s this:
Inexorably drawn to you
INEXORABLY DRAWN TO YOU
This is deliberate. Do you know why? Because the ‘you’ is purposefully added right after the ‘to–’ so it serves as a completion of the unfinished sentence and then is set apart by the rest of the sentence by the interjection of ‘she said’.
Had this not been intentional, the scene could or should have read:
“…she felt herself inexorably drawn to– to–
“You are afraid that you will never be as strong as Darth Vader,” she said.”
This would illustrate that she has been drawn to this piece of information just fine and it would have disrupted the previously started sentence like only a new piece of information can disrupt a train of thought.
But the way it is written, it is not a disruption of a thought, it’s its completion. It’s a ploy. It’s foreshadowing. It’s a hint.
It’s exactly what I would do if I was writing this and that’s because I’ve seen it done a million times. It’s because I then went on to use it myself.
It’s why I was standing by the book shelf at Forbidden Planet and made a face at that damn book because FUCK YOU. I see what you are doing, I see what is happening, I see the groundwork you’re laying there.
No matter what will happen with Kylo and Rey, no matter what plans are final, their scenes in the novel and thus in the original script are setting up an enemies-to-lovers or at least keeping the door for it wide open and there’s nothing anyone can do about it, because it’s already been done.
It’s already in motion. Do with this what you will.
One of the most shocking things I’ve noticed since the advent of the HD leak is that Kylo punches Finn in the face after disarming him. I find that single act of physical violence more shocking and telling than any of the lightsaber moves – there’s something especially brutal and visceral about it. That single blow conveys everything you need to know about Kylo’s attitude towards Finn, and it’s deeply unsettling.
On this subject, let’s briefly resurrect discussion of the snow fight (previously discussed here, with a somewhat different focus), since I can now write on the subject while it is fresh in my mind.
Kylo’s attack on Finn is highly sadistic and contemptuous – he clearly hates Finn with an intense, disproportionate passion, which I still hold is as much on account of what Finn represents (i.e. choosing the ‘light’ path that he craves despite himself) as who Finn is. This is borne out by almost every facet of Kylo’s interactions with Finn – he screams that he is a “TRAITOR!” when he sees Finn cradling Rey, demonstrates extreme rage when Finn takes up a fighting stance with his lightaber, and fights with him in a manner that is steeped in arrogance and vanity. He toys with Finn instead of finishing him quickly as he so obviously could, and his expression is filled with an eerie, disquieting satisfaction as he burns the hilt of his lightsaber into Finn’s shoulder and listens to his screams. Perhaps most important is the climax of the fight with Finn – Kylo disarms Finn with a powerful blow, punches him in the face, and slices his spine open with a flourish. All of these acts are about humiliation and punishment, and they represent Kylo indulging impulses that Vader would be proud of.
Kylo’s treatment of Finn is exceptionally brutal and aggressive, and I find that that makes the contrast between the fight with Finn and the fight with Rey even more striking. Kylo regards Rey with raw, unmitigated awe when he sees her holding the lightsaber across the snow.
All of the tension leaves his body – which had previously been quivering from pent-up emotion and stress – in that moment. Instead, Kylo relaxes and just stares at her, speechless and amazed. It’s not the shock of a man who has found his imminent victory thwarted – it’s the amazement of a man who can’t quite believe the miracle he is witnessing. And this initial response is borne out across the rest of the fight, which is more of a chase in its first half – Kylo is generally either blocking or making powerful strikes, seemingly with the intent of knocking the lightsaber out of Rey’s grasp. He lets her stagger back from him as she flags, merely following.
The fight changes completely following Rey’s epiphany, since she becomes transcendently powerful – Kylo stands no chance of victory from the moment she snarls, and while he doesn’t stop fighting her until the very end he is clearly overwhelmed by her – the stunned awe never really left him. His returning attacks are unfocused and desperate, and he is completely overpowered. Rey’s laser-targeted focus underlines the corresponding loss of focus in Kylo – they have exchanged states, with the balance of power flipping in Rey’s favour.
Perhaps most importantly, Kylo doesn’t look at Rey with anger when he’s lying bleeding and scarred on the snow, only demonstrating the remnants of the awe and amazement that he showed at the beginning when he realised who/what (take your pick) she was. He has been transported, and while we still don’t understand in what way or why, we know his perception of Rey – and his future path – has been fundamentally altered.
Yes! I need to find a gif of Finn getting this punch
And @starwarsnonsense is right that Finn no longer had his weapon in his hands when that happened.
And there it is. I’ve seen some people argue that Kylo was only fighting defensively with both Finn and Rey, but that’s very clearly untrue – this gif alone refutes that argument better than any essay could.
Kylo was absolutely brutal with Finn, and it’s important to remember that on account of what it says about him as a person – he is primarily characterised by negative and destructive emotions and impulses. His comparative gentleness with Rey is exceptional, and it’s important not to lose sight of the fact that his brutality and anger are more prominent overall.
^^all of this^^ reblogging for additional gif and commentary
You would think that after nine viewings I would have noticed the punch, but I hadn’t really, or seeing it looped in HD calls attention to it. The “unreconstructed Ren” of episode VII is brutal when he chooses to be.
@starwarsnonsense, you have written some good meta about the difference in level of aggression Kylo Ren demonstrates in the fight with Finn and with Rey. I generally agree with your reading, but I think Kylo Ren really does show a reckless, heedless violence towards her at the beginning of the fight, when Rey says, “you’re a monster,” and Ren retaliates by hurling her against the tree. She is speaking the terrible truth to him, and HE KNOWS IT. I believe he’s not thinking at all in that moment, just reacting, and in that instant he truly doesn’t care if she dies.
The shot emphasizes the violence and potentially lethal danger of his gesture, with a sharp, broken branch projecting from the trunk of one of the trees in a way that it appears Rey may be impaled on impact. I remember gasping in horror the first time I saw this, and it still makes me cringe. My perception is that it is chance, or the grace of the Force that she survives to fight and defeat him later in the scene, because he isn’t pulling punches, thinking, or trying not to hurt her in that moment.
Don’t get me wrong, I firmly believe that these two enemies will be the ones to bring balance to the Force, and that they will be doing it as allies by Act III/#IX. But that’s not where they are now, and that’s fine, since the next two movies have to go somewhere. 🙂
Oh, he absolutely does. Flinging her against the tree is cruel, brutal and disproportionately violent (while she did try to fire on him first, you simply can’t construe his slamming her against a tree as a defensive move). I also find it particularly sinister because it’s so clearly an act designed to silence her and render her helpless, in much the same way that the Force freeze is. The Force push is less calculated than the Force freeze – being an act of passionate anger rather than an element of a cat-and-mouse game – but both acts are about control and restriction.
Kylo’s attitude towards Rey changes entirely after he sees her with the lightsaber, however, which is why that look of absolute awe and wonder is so important. I can’t see him trying moves intended to subdue or immoblise her moving forward – instead, I see him trying to appeal to her as his equal in power and potential. And I find that an exceptionally thrilling and intriguing prospect.
Kylo Ren’s cracked kyber crystal bugs me. Which prompted me to expose why. And then i did research, and then this happened.
To each his own but – this thing is gorgeous okay. Feast your eyes on imaginary mystical tech:
Pretty.
The design is “ancient, dating back thousands of years to the Great Scourge of Malachor” (VD)
What is the Scourge of Malachor, i hear? We don’t know. We don’t know much about canon Malachor itself
yet (apart from the fact that it’s a sucky place), and there’s no way
to know what – if anything – has been kept from the eu. It stayed canon
because it was mentioned in the Clone Wars (0512) as hellish place, but
you can go anywhere from that.
And why mention it? Why tie this particular event to this design. Why, damnit, why.
…do you know who’s linked to the cataclysmic event in the eu version of Malachor?
Yeah. Fucking Revan. I really have no idea what to make of this, but other reylo shippers are probably gonna love this tidbit…
The ‘saber “evokes an ancient feel” but “its components are modern” (VD) – so there are some
changes to the basic design. It’s not just a copy, it’s an adaptation.
However, “its crude appearance suggests construction by an inexperienced
hand” (VD). Suggests. Sounds like a key word here. Especially
when you take into account the fact that there’s something fishy about
what we’re told of Kylo Ren, in general. We think.
So the
saber use a cracked crystal. That’s interesting, because the First Order
has access to… uncracked ones. They’re rare, but not so rare that
they don’t use them to power their ships’ weapons. Like the Finalizer’s.
Sooo. Why use an old design planned for a cracked kyber crystal, resulting in an unstableblade, while you have access to uncracked ones? Why would you bother. WHY.
a. it’s not just any crystal (and sorry but it probably
can’t be from Vader’s saber, because that one fell with Vader’s arm in
energy pit when Luke cut it, and then a short while later the Death Star
2.0 blew up)
b. Snoke is somehow trolling Ren because why not.
Maybe it gives a kick to have his apprentice use an unstable ‘saber that
could blow up and somehow give a Valuable Life Lesson of some kind.
Maybe for shit and giggles.
e.
the crystal belonged to some dark side guy before Ren which it’s why
it’s red (crystals take their color from their user, they’re white
before someone take them) and that hides the fact he’s scared if he
picked a crystal himself it wouldn’t be red since HE’S SO TORN APART
f. there’s something about the Scourge and damn,
g. i’m overthinking everything
Probably g. Posting before i regret.
Oh no, I think it is definitely from Vader’s lightsaber.
Snoke in the novelization sounds like someone who personally witnessed – or had an account from a witness – of the scene in which Vader kills Palpatine.
The last two people out of that room were two Imperial guards. Listening would’ve also clued them in that there’s a sister, as well. And Snoke knows about Leia. Unless it’s truly become public knowledge, s/he had to know somehow.
I still haven’t got Aftermath, but I think there’s a scene in that novel in which a mysterious organization called the Acolytes of the Beyond are buying what they believe to be Vader’s lightsaber. (Somebody please correct me if I got this wrong.)
Reylo Source 